tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14068948.post5910374047636641032..comments2024-03-10T04:16:27.797-04:00Comments on Lord Kitchener's Own: Jason Cherniak's fantasy conspiracy theory STILL better than FPTP!!!Lord Kitchener's Ownhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08348376638620272991noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14068948.post-77307338156398730762007-09-13T15:35:00.000-04:002007-09-13T15:35:00.000-04:00Yes Dawg, it's good to be prepared!Of the Italy co...Yes Dawg, it's good to be prepared!<BR/><BR/>Of the Italy comparison, should it come up, I think I would then mention that in 1992 (before they went to MMP) there were 16 parties that won seats in the Italian election (<A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_general_election%2C_1992" REL="nofollow"> Wiki Link</A>.) 16!!!<BR/><BR/>Also, at no time since the 1948 Italian election have there been less than 6 parties to win a higher percentage of the vote than the Green Party has EVER won in Ontario. Italy has a 59 year tradition of electing more than 5 parties to their legislature. In Ontario, with the exception of a time in the 20s and 30s when there were a few small "parties" that were really just part of the Liberal Coalition, we haven't elected 4 actual parties to the legislature since 1926, and even then 3 of those parties were united in a single caucus under one leader, and only ONE of those parties would have had enough to hit the 3% threshold mandated by MMP. <BR/><BR/>In fact, you have to go back to 1923 to find an election where more than 3 parties in Ontario hit the 3% threshold mandated by MMP. We have a long tradition of only 3-4 parties getting over 3% of the vote and the last time 4 parties did it Mackenzie King was in his FIRST mandate as Prime Minister. Italy has a long tradition of no less than 7 parties reaching that same threshold.Lord Kitchener's Ownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08348376638620272991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14068948.post-33391049125067272712007-09-13T14:49:00.000-04:002007-09-13T14:49:00.000-04:00Italy went to MMP in 1993.But look, I agree with y...Italy went to MMP in 1993.<BR/><BR/>But look, I agree with you about Ontario, and indeed, about Canada. The scenario is ludicrous here. The electors would never stand for another four parties springing into existence to siphon off votes. I just don't want our side, at some inopportune moment, to be stymied in front of a crowd as Jason flourishes his Ace: "Italy! Berlusconi, 2002! Venezuela! 2000!Dr.Dawghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00416571487451925246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14068948.post-43127894701762074982007-09-13T14:28:00.000-04:002007-09-13T14:28:00.000-04:00True, but Italy (before 2005) had basically PURE P...True, but Italy (before 2005) had basically PURE PR didn't they?<BR/><BR/>People always bring up Israel and Italy, but neither used a system like the MMP system proposed for Ontario. Israel uses pure unadulterated proportional representation, and Italy used to, and it was so messed up that they changed their electoral system in 2005 (imagine that, seeing that your electoral system is messed up, and then changing it!).<BR/><BR/>What I hate about so much of the opposition to MMP is that it often takes the most convoluted conspiracy of what could possibly happen if all the stars in the 13th dimension under an MMP system and then says "see, we'd be crazy to adopt MMP".<BR/><BR/>In Jason's case though, it was particularly funny. A massive conspiracy, involving a political party that doesn't even exist, and that the voters go along with en masse can't manage to produce an advantage even a third the size of the advantage the Liberals have today, in the real world, thanks to FPTP!!!Lord Kitchener's Ownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08348376638620272991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14068948.post-21601291923577079992007-09-13T13:28:00.000-04:002007-09-13T13:28:00.000-04:00Well, careful.In Italy (commencing with Berlusconi...Well, careful.<BR/><BR/>In Italy (commencing with Berlusconi) and in a province of Venezuela, the "decoy list" ploy has been tried. What it did was rather quickly get neutralized because other parties started doing it too.<BR/><BR/>But in our relatively docile political culture, such shenanigans would not go over with the electorate very well. We haven't seen anything like this in any other country with MMP, and I suspect for that reason.<BR/><BR/>Speaking of shenanigans, I don't think it's paranoid to see the Liberal brass at work behind the scenes here. I shared a platform with Ed Broadbent last night, and a member of the crowd announced that the McGuinty government had ceased distribution of the Citizens' Assembly pamphlet explaining MMP. What wonderful timing, eh? I've noticed a bit of a Liberal anti-MMP "troop surge" in the blogosphere, too.Dr.Dawghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00416571487451925246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14068948.post-76277278661966210292007-09-13T13:11:00.000-04:002007-09-13T13:11:00.000-04:00Down on the farm, we call that 'cognitive dissonan...Down on the farm, we call that 'cognitive dissonance'. Generally that's a bad thing.<BR/><BR/>Someone ought to tell Jason.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06941875334878452635noreply@blogger.com